Woodland Walks podcast

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. 

Adam: Well, today I'm off to meet someone much closer to home than normal. I can do it on the tube rather than going on the train. I am meeting Danny Clarke, who is a British garden designer who shot to fame in 2015 as BBC's Instant Gardener. Since then, he's been on our screens with a host of popular garden makeover shows and horticultural advice. He joined ITV's This Morning's presenting team, and he is now a member of Alan Titchmarsh's Love Your Garden team as well. In fact, in addition to all of that, he helps run a charity known as Grow2Know which, whose heart I think really lies in reclaiming space and reconnecting people with nature and each other. And it's one of those projects I think I'm going to see him at really very centrally, in London, in Notting Hill, where they have tried to bring some green space, some nature right to the heart of the city, and include all the local communities. 

Danny: My name is Danny Clarke. I'm a garden designer and TV presenter. 

Adam: Lovely. And we are meeting in what is now fashionable Notting Hill, wasn't always the case when I was growing up around this area, actually, so, but but we're we're in an urban garden that is your design. 

Danny: Well, not the whole garden, not the whole space. I mean, this is Tavistock Square. Yeah, uh, but we've, um, kind of elicited a section of it to rehome our Chelsea Flower Show garden from 2022, which is which actually is a Grow2Know project, of which of which I'm a director of. 

Adam: So I what wanna know about Grow2Know. But you you've already mentioned the garden and we're standing right by it. So. Well, why don't you describe it to begin with. So people get a sort of visual image of what it is we're standing next to. 

Danny: OK, so basically your corten steel structure, it's dominated by a corten steel structure. And that's supposed to represent two things, a) the mangrove restaurant, which was a place that was owned by a West Indian immigrant in the late 60s/70s that was brutalised by the police. And so it's telling that story. And it's also telling the story of man's injustice to nature. So what we see here really is a corten steel structure, which represents the roots of a mangrove tree. And as you can see, it looks quite brutal and and and the top where the trunk is, it's actually been severed, which actually represents what, you know, man's kind of lack of, shall we say, I don't know, respect for nature. 

Adam: So it's it's a political, I mean, it's an interesting installation, if that's the right word, in that it's it is political in this with this sort of small P, not party political, but it's sort of reflecting the societal challenges that this area certainly went through. But you it's interesting, you talk about the trunk, is it is it also a tree? I mean this is a sort of tree podcast. Is there a reference in that as well? 

Danny: Yeah, that's a reference to the tree, so that the reference to the tree is that it is a mangrove tree alright, so mangrove and mangrove restaurant. Yeah, so it's kind of a play on words, if you like. So we're telling it's really about storytelling. So we're telling two stories here. We're telling the story of man's brutality against man and man's brutality against nature. 

Adam: Wonderful. So you run this organisation? What's it called again? 

Danny: It's called Grow2Know. I don't actually run it, I'm a director, so I'm I'm I'm it's so it started well, it started soon after the Grenfell fire in 2017. 

Adam: Which is also I mean this is not far from here as well. 

Danny: It's not far from here. It’s just up the road. And I was horrified by what unfolded like many people were. And I felt quite powerless. So I thought, you know what I’ll do? I'll get in touch with the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, where the tower resides and see if I could help in some way, maybe use my expertise as a garden designer to maybe build a small, I don't know, small garden and I spoke to our head of greening guy called Terry Oliver. There's lots of emails flying backwards and forwards. And he was eulogising about this young man called Tayshan Hayden-Smith, 19, single father and who lives near the tower who knew people who perished in the flames. And he turned to gardening or guerilla gardening. I don’t know if you know what that is? It’s gardening without permission. 

Adam: Well, yeah. A friend of mine does that actually near where I live, and sort of grows plants, actually vegetables and potatoes in the street trees. I'm I'm going I don't wanna eat your potatoes! But anyway, I get it. It's an interesting sort of little subculture, guerilla gardening. 

Danny: He was just drawn to it. I think it's probably because his mum used to was into nature when Tayshan was very young and she used to point things out to him. Like, look at that tree, isn’t that wonderful? Look at that sunset, isn't it lovely? And this, this kind of instilled into his sort of consciousness. And he just naturally just felt he needed to just go out and find a piece of land, community space, pick up litter, syringes, maybe go to the garden centre, get some fading plants and just pretty the place up as best he could, and he got a lot of healing from that and people will be attracted to him. So there'll be this conversation going on. Sometimes people will stay for a minute, then go off again. Others will probably stay and help him along the way. You know? You know, to to transform the space as best they could. And he got a lot of healing from that. 

Adam: And and and you, you and your colleagues sort of created this charity around. 

Danny: So so no, no. So o what then happened was that I... he wanted to know if I'd like to meet this guy, and I'm thinking to myself, you know, I've been meeting a guy that's got all sorts of issues that I might not be able to deal with. But I had this outline of him, and when I met him, there was none of that. He's the most amazing, well-put-together, guy – young man – I’ve ever met really. And I, cut a long story short, became his mentor, and we've just been on this fabulous journey ever since. And this is part of it. So one day, Tayshan said to me, he'd like to form a nonprofit. We didn't have a name for it at the time, but it did become Grow2Know, and and he wanted to show the wider, more people wanted to make it nature more inclusive, and he because he got so many benefits from it, he wanted the other people to enjoy, you know, the curative effects of gardening and being in nature – cause we all know it's good for the mind, body and soul. So that's how Grow2Know was born. But we've actually sort of gone on from that now. We're more than just a a gardening collective. We're more pace-making, change making. We're out there to sort of change the narrative, if you like. And we're kind of an activist group and we're just trying to make nature more appealing to a wider audience. 

Adam: And how how are you doing that? I mean, you’ve clearly got this garden here. But in trying to sort of bring urban communities closer to nature, how are you doing that? 

Danny: Yeah. Bring, bring, bring communities closer to nature. 

Adam: And how do you do that? 

Danny: By having spaces like this. So we've got spaces, quite a few spaces that we've converted in this area and this is just one of them. So it's about bringing people into nature and making it more diverse and more accessible. And in many ways, that's what we're about. 

Adam: And so I'm interested in in your view about urban communities, youth communities, diverse communities. 

Danny: That we’re all drawn to nature. You know, we, we we all needed part of it in our lives. That's what lockdown taught us, that it was very important for us. 

Adam: So it's not a challenge for you to bring them into your world. You think they're already there? 

Danny: No, the people are already there. It’s it's just giving them access to these spaces. I mean, for example, excuse me, in the north of Kensington where, let's say it's less affluent than the South, people have the equivalent of one car parking space of nature or greenery that they can access. In the South, which is a lot richer by the river, you know, you've got the like, well, the Chelsea Flower Show is actually by the Thames River, and where people like Simon Cowell and David Beckham have properties, so you get an idea. 

Adam: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. 

Danny: We all know how wealthy that area is. They've got on average half a football pitch of nature they can access, or greenery. So that tells its own story and and the life expectancy between the people in the north of the borough and the south of the borough, there's a 15 year difference, so you're expected to live 15 years longer if you live in the south than you are in the north. 

Adam: It is and I hadn't thought of that before you said that, but it is an interesting part of London, this, because Kensington has this sort of reputation of being very posh and everything and the David Beckhams and the what have you. But it is a very divided sort of part of London, isn't it? With the very rich and really the quite quite poor and disadvantaged as well, all within the same borough. 

Danny: It is, there's a big difference and I think you'll probably find it's the biggest, there's a bigger disparity here than any other borough in in the country. 

Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. So also, oh, well, why don't we have a walk? We’ll walk through through your garden whilst we're talking about this. So also just tell me a bit about, so we we you you very eloquently describe the the the metal sculpture we're we're sort of walking under now, but a bit, the planting as well. So you've got sort of beds of bark here which make it look very nice. 

Danny: Yeah. So we're we're kind of going with the woodland theme cause as you can see there's lots of trees around here, cause I'm I am a bit of a tree hugger and I love trees. That's my thing. 

Danny: And we didn't want to, I mean, the, the this garden, although it was our Grow2Know show garden at Chelsea, we haven't actually transformed it in that form. It's the planting is completely different because if we did that, it would jar with what's around. So we've gone with the space. So although yeah, it's all good. 

Adam: It's all quite green and evergreen. 

Danny: So the actual structure is the same, but that's all that's that's that's similar. Every, everything else is different. And of course we've had to adapt it as well because the garden that we had at Chelsea had ponds. So for health and safety reasons, we couldn't have that here. So we've gone with the woodlandy theme and so there's rhododendrons, there's ferns. 

Adam: I was gonna say quite a lot of ferns and some also some big stones here as well, which sort of nice, nice bit of sculpture. 

Danny: Yeah. That that's a bit of a coincidence really, because. 

Adam: Because they're just there. 

Danny: These were already here, but believe it or not, we had stones this size in our Chelsea Flower Show garden. We didn't transport them from there to here. These were already here and we've just kind of re- sort of jigged them. Re-placed them. Just to make it all look a bit more appealing. But we actually had these at Chelsea as seats in the central area underneath the structure. But now they're actually sort of dispersed in the beds and they make great features and and having them there actually helps move the eye around the space. 

Adam: Yeah. So I mean what, ecology and and concerns about the environment. Clearly a a big issue at the moment. What what's your sense about how the people you work with and and talk to feel about that and engage with it? Are you optimistic about that engagement and and what difference that might make? That was that was my phone. I'm sorry, I should have should have put that on silent.  

Danny: I'm working with amateurs Ruby! Ohh.  

Adam: Yeah, I know, I know. I know. You know what? When I'm out with the film crew, you have to buy the round of drinks if that, ‘whose phone went?’ Right, you're buying a round the, yeah, we're we're we're right by the... 

Danny: Yeah, well, and it's and it ain't cheap. 

Adam: OK. I'll put it on silent now. That'll teach me. What was I saying? Yeah, so. Yes. I wonder whether you're optimistic about that reengagement? Cause the way you're talking about it is very positive actually. Everything you've said is very positive. Is that I, I want to get a sense of is that because you're a positive guy and you or, you know, you're trying to look on the positive side, or you genuinely feel no, no, this, you know, these communities are engaging and that's a great thing, not just for them. But for nature, because if people support nature, nature's got a sort of pal hasn't it. 

Danny: Yeah. And I think people are engaging and and do you know what? I mean I'm all for getting young people involved in nature as much as I possibly can. I think that's very, very important. I think we gotta get them out at a a very early age, the earlier the better because then it sort of stays with you for the rest of your life. If you are not sort of involved in it at young age then you're not, you're less likely to be interested in it later on in life. But I think people generally are engaged in nature. They do need a bit of green. Yeah, I think we're naturally drawn to it. I know when we put it, for example, installing this garden here, the amount of people that are coming out and saying what a wonderful job we were doing. And you know this sort of thing is much needed in this space. And it's also by doing this, it's encouraged the cause. This is a council owned area. It's encouraged the council now to reconfigure the whole of this area to sort of give this more of a sense of place.  

Adam: I mean, it's interesting you say that. I have to say my experience is not that, it’s that young people I meet and I don't meet as many as probably you do, so I will accept that maybe you have a more expert view on this. But my experience is that younger people are engaged with the politics of nature like they're very into green politics maybe and talk about it, but you don't see them a lot in the woodlands.  

Danny: Oh, absolutely. 

Adam: It's actually older people I see in the woodlands and it's the young people are sort of politically going, yeah, yeah, that's cool. But actually, I don't see them at these sort of events and they might grow into that. But so is that I I'm just wondering whether you recognise that or you think no, no, that's not what you see. They are actually out there and I'm just seeing, you know, a sort of different view. 

Danny: I think I think they are. I think they are out there. Obviously there are a lot of young people aren't kind of, don't, aren't as engaged with nature as say I was when I I was a lot younger. I mean you don't see them outside sort of playing around, kicking the ball, climbing trees like we would do, going off of bike rides into the fields. 

Adam: Are you a country boy, then are you? Or you grew up in town? 

Danny:  No. In fact, my my childhood was very I I moved around a lot cause my dad was in the army. So lived in Belgium, Germany, Malta, all those sort of places. But we were never encouraged to be indoors. We were always thrown outside. I mean, I remember even at the age of 8 or 9 just disappearing for all day. My parents would never know where I was. But you know, I'd I always came home. I never came to any harm. But I think these days I think parents are kind of very worried that that something might nefarious might happen to their children and and the kids aren't given the freedom that we were given, which is a shame. So they're not exposed to nature as much on their own. I mean, I do see kids going around with their parents on walks and stuff like that, but it's not quite the same as being able to explore on your own. You know, children naturally want to sort of push the boundaries. We really need to let kids do their own thing, explore more. It's a growing experience and you know, and we all need it. We all need to be out and about and you know, listen to the tweet, I mean, tweeting of the birds, you know, feeling, feeling the wind on our on our faces, the warmth of the sun on our skin, all those things that you know, just feeling the texture of the soil, the texture of the bark on the trees. It's lovely. I love doing that. When I hug a tree, you know. Just to smell the bark. It's lovely. It's comforting. And that's because I was exposed to it when I was a child. And you know it, it gives me those fond memories and and because of that it's it's very calming and and and a great stress-buster. 

Adam: I follow you on on Instagram. You got a good Instagram following and your Instagram handle, if anyone wants to do that, is? 

Danny: The Black Gardener 

Adam: The Black Gardener. So that, which itself is an interesting sort of handle. So you're making, I don't know, is that just a random handle or are you making a point about, oh I am the black gardener. That's that's a statement. 

Danny: *laughs* Well I am. I am what it says on the tin. 

Adam: No, no. But look I'm a bald, I'm a bald reporter *laughs*. My handle isn't bald reporter, right? So it feels like you're saying something about that that's important. And I just... 

Danny: It is it is, it is important. 

Adam: Unpack that for me. Why is, why did you choose that, why is that connection to gardening, to nature and the lack community and your heritage? Why is that important?  

Danny: It's important because there are few black people who are in my industry, so that's why I'm The Black Gardener. So I got the idea from a guy called so, The Black Farmer.  

Adam: Yeah, famous range of sausages. 

Danny: That's right and I saw that he was having success with his name and the reason he calls himself The Black Farmer, cause at the time he's the only black farmer in the country, so hence The Black Farmer. Black gardeners, professional black gardeners are as rare as hen’s teeth. So I thought to myself, why don't I call myself the black gardener? 

Adam: But why? Why do you think it is then? Cause that goes back to our earlier conversation. About sort of other diverse communities. 

Danny: It could be some psychological reason, maybe from the days of slavery. Where working the land is seen as servile. Parents don't want their children to be working the land. They want their children to do something respectable like be a doctor or lawyer or something like that, so they tend to veer them away from doing something which is connected to the land, and and I think maybe that could be a reason, I mean I did have a conversation with somebody via Twitter in the States about it, and she said it's the same there. People of colour tend not to want to go into land-based industry. I mean I've I've only ever and this is only about two months ago, I saw my first black tree surgeon. Yeah, and and you know my plant wholesalers. I've spoken to them about it and they said, you know what, we've got thousands of people on the books and they can only count on one hand the amount of people of colour who are actually in the land-based industry. But also you you've gotta see it to be it as well, you know.  

Adam: What do you mean?  

Danny: Well, what I mean is if people see me in this space, then it's gonna encourage them to be in this space.  

Adam: I see, it normalises it more. 

Danny: It it normalises it more. I mean, I I go into the countryside. I mean, I'm a member of the National Trust, RHS. And I go and visit these great gardens and I walk around. I'm obviously in nature, and I very rarely see people of colour. I I I was in, where was I? Sissinghurst, a little, Sissinghurst Gardens a while back. And I must have been there for a good four or five hours. And I was the only person of colour who was walking around that space. So I I want people to see me in those spaces and that hopefully will encourage them to think, well if it's for him, why can't I go there as well. 

Adam: Yeah, very cool. So I mean addressing, I mean that community and or anyone who's sort of listening to this podcast then. What would your message to them be about, maybe about that you've learned from your experiences engaging with gardens and trees and nature that you'd encourage them to do, or ways of getting involved, any anything you'd want to say to them? 

Danny: Just just go out and enjoy the space, you know? Don't be put off because you feel it's not for you. It's for everybody. I mean, nature shouldn't have any boundaries. It's there for everybody to enjoy and you get the benefits from being out there. It's it's it's all good for us. I mean I would really like to see more people engaged in gardening or horticulture as a way of earning a living. Because for me it's it's not a job. It's just what I do. It's what I enjoy. I've got a real passion for it. I love it and I like to see other people, whoever they are. It it doesn't have to be a colour thing. It it, I'm talking about young, old, I'm talking about gay, straight, whatever, whoever you are, it's there for everybody to to enjoy. 

Adam: Brilliant. Well, it's been a real treat meeting you. Thank you very much indeed. Under your wonderful sculpture in your garden in the centre of London. 

Danny: Yeah, you're most welcome. 

Adam: Thank you very much. Remind me of your your your social media handles. 

Danny: It's The Black Gardener. I'm I'm on Facebook and I'm on Threads. 

Adam: On Threads, now there's something I haven't heard for a long time! 

Danny: Yes. Yeah *laughs* So there you go. There you go.  

Adam: Right, The Black Gardener, thank you very much indeed,  

Danny: You're most welcome. 

Adam: Well, thank you very much for listening to that and those bangs you might have heard in the background were a sign that we should go because that was the the local bin men coming along to collect the rubbish *laughs*. Anyway, thanks for listening. And wherever you're taking your walks, be that in real life or just with us on the Woodland Walks podcast, I wish you all happy wandering. 

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the Visiting Woods pages. Thank you. 

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